Great interview and read - thank you! I've always viewed police as a necessary part of society but I also attended protests in the past year because I support a number of things mentioned in this article: increasing mental health and social support spending, ending/limiting qualified immunity, limiting the situations that require an armed police presence, de-militarization of general police forces, etc.
With that being said, I'm a little disappointed in what seems like a lighthearted dismissal of the "all cops are bastards" crowd that has driven me away from defund/abolish groups. I do appreciate Alex's final response that sheds light on the fact that most police responsibilities have been forced onto them by politicians over the past few decades as they slashed funding for other social services and said, "Let the cops deal with it". ACAB is such a cynical oversimplification of a complex problem that paints a target on the generally working-class people who are being inadequately trained and greatly overworked. Beyond that, things like ACAB continue to increase the divide between left and right which limits the progress that can realistically be made.
I'm curious, do police abolitionist readers find this to be a strong enough stance? It still reads a lot like reform to current practices as opposed to actually ending police entirely. To me, this sounds reasonable - let's make incremental but meaningful changes and reallocate some resources in order to generate a better outcome for everyone; assess results and fine tune. Thanks again!
Follow the money. When you defund the police, where does that money go? Back to the taxpayers? Not a chance. The people who want you to defund the police also want you to give that money to them, so they can spend it on their agenda. And so, Steve, of course there is room for fine tuning, as you just said. But if it ain't broke that badly, just fix it, don't destroy it. As you also said.
Very good interview, thanks for sharing. I think I'm on board with most of his thoughts, but I think Alex is missing a point when he dismissed your personal story.
Yes the cops didn't arrive in time, but it could be argued it was the threat of the cops that caused the burglar to run. Calling the cops also gave you agency in that situation instead of feeling helpless or that you should arm yourself in some way.
Alleviating fear of these kinds of situations (oh I can always call the cops) is a huge part of what cops provide to white middle class+ Americans and it's why I think the ACAB chants have been so damaging to the movement in these groups.
My ideal next step solution would be to have mental health/social workers that report to a separate agency ride along with all calls. That way you have accountability, someone who might be trained better in helping 90% of the calls they get, and keep the protection in case that's actually required.
Of course the costs etc of such a program may be prohibitive, but it would step towards us not pounding square pegs into round holes.
Who, exactly, are these police that we want to defund? Are they racist thugs who murder black folks in cold blood? Or are they brave first responders who might not show up soon enough to catch a burglar, but often show up in time to handle an emergency and perhaps save a life. They deal with highway accidents and even prevent a great many. Defuse squabbles, both neighborly and domestic. Direct traffic. Investigate crimes. Guard vulnerable properties. This list goes on and on. "When we look closely at what police actually do, it has very little to do with violence or serious crime." (Quoting today's Tangle.)
By abolishing the police, you do not just abolish Inspector Javert. You also abolish Andy Griffith. You abolish all who have sworn to protect you and to serve you. It is The Law of Unintended Consequences at work. So, whom will you call next, when 911 rings unanswered?
Fact: US police have shot and killed 213 civilians this year, as of April 1. Precisely 30 of them, or 14%, were black. Wouldn't know that from the media stories, would you?
Out of curiosity, where did you get this data? Using this database from WaPo (https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings/blob/master/fatal-police-shootings-data.csv) I find 283 lethal shootings and 60 of them were black (21.2%) but there are another 71 where race is not disclosed so it's likely higher than 60. Black Americans are considered to make up less than 13% of the US population.
If you do the math, there were 223 + 209 + 235 + 241 + 30 = 938 black deaths since 2017. That would be 4 per million per year, not 35. Still too high, of course. For a thoughtful and detailed analysis, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/.
This was so interesting, and thanks for transcribing the conversation. I’m in Portland and very supportive of moving police (and teachers) out of the business of crisis intervention. One question I have for Alex and you is, we’ve seen the results of public housing in the US and UK—how would new projects be different or have different results?
These ideas could transform our experience of living in American cities, but I didn't like the way he brushed off the more radical rhetoric. IMO that stuff only engenders resistance, which makes reform that much harder.
But Isaac, the blithe response to your personal experience made me angry. What does he--or you--think would have happened, if the guy knew that no police were going to come?
Great interview and read - thank you! I've always viewed police as a necessary part of society but I also attended protests in the past year because I support a number of things mentioned in this article: increasing mental health and social support spending, ending/limiting qualified immunity, limiting the situations that require an armed police presence, de-militarization of general police forces, etc.
With that being said, I'm a little disappointed in what seems like a lighthearted dismissal of the "all cops are bastards" crowd that has driven me away from defund/abolish groups. I do appreciate Alex's final response that sheds light on the fact that most police responsibilities have been forced onto them by politicians over the past few decades as they slashed funding for other social services and said, "Let the cops deal with it". ACAB is such a cynical oversimplification of a complex problem that paints a target on the generally working-class people who are being inadequately trained and greatly overworked. Beyond that, things like ACAB continue to increase the divide between left and right which limits the progress that can realistically be made.
I'm curious, do police abolitionist readers find this to be a strong enough stance? It still reads a lot like reform to current practices as opposed to actually ending police entirely. To me, this sounds reasonable - let's make incremental but meaningful changes and reallocate some resources in order to generate a better outcome for everyone; assess results and fine tune. Thanks again!
Follow the money. When you defund the police, where does that money go? Back to the taxpayers? Not a chance. The people who want you to defund the police also want you to give that money to them, so they can spend it on their agenda. And so, Steve, of course there is room for fine tuning, as you just said. But if it ain't broke that badly, just fix it, don't destroy it. As you also said.
Very good interview, thanks for sharing. I think I'm on board with most of his thoughts, but I think Alex is missing a point when he dismissed your personal story.
Yes the cops didn't arrive in time, but it could be argued it was the threat of the cops that caused the burglar to run. Calling the cops also gave you agency in that situation instead of feeling helpless or that you should arm yourself in some way.
Alleviating fear of these kinds of situations (oh I can always call the cops) is a huge part of what cops provide to white middle class+ Americans and it's why I think the ACAB chants have been so damaging to the movement in these groups.
My ideal next step solution would be to have mental health/social workers that report to a separate agency ride along with all calls. That way you have accountability, someone who might be trained better in helping 90% of the calls they get, and keep the protection in case that's actually required.
Of course the costs etc of such a program may be prohibitive, but it would step towards us not pounding square pegs into round holes.
"could be argued" far understates the case.
Who, exactly, are these police that we want to defund? Are they racist thugs who murder black folks in cold blood? Or are they brave first responders who might not show up soon enough to catch a burglar, but often show up in time to handle an emergency and perhaps save a life. They deal with highway accidents and even prevent a great many. Defuse squabbles, both neighborly and domestic. Direct traffic. Investigate crimes. Guard vulnerable properties. This list goes on and on. "When we look closely at what police actually do, it has very little to do with violence or serious crime." (Quoting today's Tangle.)
By abolishing the police, you do not just abolish Inspector Javert. You also abolish Andy Griffith. You abolish all who have sworn to protect you and to serve you. It is The Law of Unintended Consequences at work. So, whom will you call next, when 911 rings unanswered?
Fact: US police have shot and killed 213 civilians this year, as of April 1. Precisely 30 of them, or 14%, were black. Wouldn't know that from the media stories, would you?
Out of curiosity, where did you get this data? Using this database from WaPo (https://github.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings/blob/master/fatal-police-shootings-data.csv) I find 283 lethal shootings and 60 of them were black (21.2%) but there are another 71 where race is not disclosed so it's likely higher than 60. Black Americans are considered to make up less than 13% of the US population.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
According to your source provided: “Additionally, the rate of fatal police shootings among Black Americans was much higher than that for any other ethnicity, standing at 35 fatal shootings per million of the population as of March 2021.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
If you do the math, there were 223 + 209 + 235 + 241 + 30 = 938 black deaths since 2017. That would be 4 per million per year, not 35. Still too high, of course. For a thoughtful and detailed analysis, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/.
You would believe WaPo? I have a bridge in Brooklyn that you might like to buy.
This was so interesting, and thanks for transcribing the conversation. I’m in Portland and very supportive of moving police (and teachers) out of the business of crisis intervention. One question I have for Alex and you is, we’ve seen the results of public housing in the US and UK—how would new projects be different or have different results?
These ideas could transform our experience of living in American cities, but I didn't like the way he brushed off the more radical rhetoric. IMO that stuff only engenders resistance, which makes reform that much harder.
But Isaac, the blithe response to your personal experience made me angry. What does he--or you--think would have happened, if the guy knew that no police were going to come?
I definitely have a better understanding of what “defund the police” means. I have much to think about. Thank you for that.